[18:04] Dinnie Devonshire is Online [18:05] Cindy Elkhart: hi [18:05] Lorelei Junot: We are becoming more and more diverse as is second life [18:05] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:05] Lorelei Junot: this is going to be a text chat type talk [18:05] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:05] Lorelei Junot: We are not using Skype at this time [18:05] Lorelei Junot: although if any of you are interested [18:05] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:05] You: Hi all [18:05] Lorelei Junot: World Bridges is offeirng a webcast academy [18:05] Catherine Chenille: I'm getting audio [18:05] Lorelei Junot: Welcome Virtual Dave [18:05] Ilene Pratt: Yes, turn off name tags in EDIT - preferences - and go to "general" and then "show names" never [18:06] Lorelei Junot: thank you for coming [18:06] Catherine Chenille: thanks [18:06] Lorelei Junot: email me if you have questions about the library [18:06] You: Sorry I'm late. [18:06] Nora Dowding: thanks lorelei! [18:06] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [18:06] James Bringholf: Hi [18:06] Marji Beresford: Thanks. [18:06] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:06] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:07] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:07] Galen Noltenius: hello and welcome to the first of what we hope will be many presentations brought to you by the American Library Association's Washington Office [18:07] Galen Noltenius: many of you are new to second life, so welcome to info island [18:08] Galen Noltenius: the ALA/WO is made up of 2 units [18:08] Galen Noltenius: the office of gov't relations works with gov't officials to ensure librarians' voices are heard in Washington, DC [18:09] Galen Noltenius: the Office for Information TEchnology Policy examines who tecnology and technology policy is affecting libraries [18:09] Galen Noltenius: we asked teh Information Insitute at Syracuse to examine how libraries are affected by social networking sites [18:10] Galen Noltenius: here to present the paper that resulted from theat research is David Lankes from Syracuse Unversity [18:10] Galen Noltenius: AKA Virtual Dave [18:10] Galen Noltenius: so thank u all for coming and i'll let dave get started [18:10] Galen Noltenius: so thank u all for coming and i'll let dave get started [18:11] Galen Noltenius: Dave? [18:11] You: Hi all and thanks for coming. [18:11] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:11] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:11] You: I apologize if the glare off of my glasses blinds you, but that's what I COULD AFFORD. [18:11] You: I'm hoping this will be a pretty interactive session. [18:11] You: Feel free to ask questions or add comments throughout. [18:12] Dewey Jung: yeah, his parts are clickable! [18:12] You: My slides are arranged behind me here. [18:12] You: I'll refer to them as I go, but really, I'm just hoping for a conversation. [18:12] You: And that was were are paper ended up going. [18:13] You: I invite you to take a look and comment on the paper. It will take these ideas in a lot more depth. [18:13] You: We've also set up an interactive site for you to comment. [18:13] You: Let me start with a little background. [18:13] You: The folks at ALA OITP have been keeping an eye on teh social networking stuff, particularly as it relates to policy. [18:14] You: Last year there was some legislation introduced in the US Congress called DOPA. [18:14] You: This would have added what types of sites schools and libraries (e-rate folks) would have to filter. [18:14] You: Which is, well, scary. [18:14] buridan Simon: Please! explain the importance of dopa [18:15] You: However, it pretty much sums up the uncertainty and fear associated with Web 2.0 [18:15] You: DOPA.... [18:15] You: Defense against Online Predators Act... [18:15] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:15] Dewey Jung: or web 3.0 for that matter! [18:15] You: It would have created a commission to specify sites that schools and libraries must filter. [18:16] You: They couldn't just say MySpace in legisilation, so they started talking about "interactive websites." [18:16] You: The reach was VERY broad. [18:16] Marji Beresford: I work in a school library where EVERYTHING is filtered. [18:16] You: Yes, but as of now your school has nominal control over what is filtered. [18:16] Galen Noltenius: one additional note, it would be required in schools and libraries receiving E-Rate funindg [18:16] You: This would ahve removed that control. [18:16] Troy McLuhan: So it's a classic case of shoot the messenger? [18:16] You: Yes. [18:17] You: Worse still... [18:17] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:17] buridan Simon: /didn't dopa and its precursors exist before myspace? [18:17] Zorn Cheetah: fear-based, knee-jerk reaction. [18:17] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [18:17] Sharkie Carmona: Dave. could you tell us which congressmen sponsored this legislation? [18:17] You: it would have kids encountering these sites out of a controled environment, thus defeating the whole purpose. [18:17] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:17] buridan Simon: /sponsors are available on the web [18:17] You: There is a lot of confusion in the whole Web 2.0 world. That was our starting point. [18:17] Dewey Jung: damn legislators don't want education; they want mind control!!! [18:18] You: Where we eneded up however, was some place much more interesting. [18:18] You: At least in our minds. [18:18] You: If you think about libraries and their physical spaces, one could say in many cases they are social places. [18:18] You: In fact recent trends are to make them more social. [18:19] Marji Beresford: School libraries are very social places. [18:19] You: From coffee bars to better seating, to lecture series, the trend is to have people see the library as a gathering place. [18:19] You: Indeed, schol libraries have long understood they are not just book places, but exploratory classes. [18:19] buridan Simon: /how is that different form what libraries have been> [18:19] You: However... [18:19] Pappy Milo: who is talking? [18:19] You: Look online. [18:19] James Bringholf: What's happening is that social technologies are becoming a standard feature of Internet spaces. [18:19] LibraryLady LeShelle: When will we understand that learning IS social? [18:19] You: Catalogs, hours information, in many cases libraries online are very antisocial. [18:19] Dewey Jung: once we've read vygotsky! [18:20] You: Our catalogs are at best a one way conversation. [18:20] Karatina Whitfield: what does that meain? [18:20] You: Reference is better, but still limited to one on one interactions. [18:20] Marji Beresford: Do you mean websites? [18:20] buridan Simon: /true dewy and vigotskii [18:20] You: Yes. [18:20] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [18:20] LibraryLady LeShelle: Lev Vygotsky is the sociocultural researcher who posits that learning is social. [18:21] You: The web has a great potential to continue the conversations we have promoted in physical spaces, but many libraries are not doing so. [18:21] You: The idea behoind this paper was to demonstrate those who are... [18:21] buridan Simon: /As do dewey and bruner librarylady leshelle [18:21] You: familiarize folks with the terminology... [18:21] Pappy Milo: should i be listening or reading? [18:21] Marji Beresford: reading [18:21] You: and give a broader context to why this isn't simply a jump on a technology bandwagon thing. [18:21] buridan Simon: /you should be thinking [18:21] Dewey Jung: YAY Dewey (and I don't mean Melville) [18:22] Pappy Milo: /(turning off music) [18:22] Sadaparibhuta Talaj: now if I can remember how to sit down [18:22] You: So, looking at the slide "Conceptual Framework" we'll start there. [18:22] You: Someone mentioned learning as social...exactly. [18:22] You: We started with a learning theory...conversation theory first proposed by Gorden Pask. [18:23] You: At it's heart is the concept that we create knowledge through converstion. [18:23] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:23] You: We talk to arrive at common menaings. [18:23] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:23] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:23] You: We then "scaffold" these commonalities to new ideas and new knwoeldge. [18:23] buridan Simon: /is that the limit of the modes of knowledge production? [18:23] You: We may talk to one person, to many people... [18:23] You: or even ourselves... [18:23] You: so called "metacognition." [18:24] You: The point is, that to learn is to converse, to interact, to particiapte. [18:24] Dewey Jung: also known as self-reflection [18:24] buridan Simon: /distributed cognition? [18:24] You: Yes, self-reflection, an important part of critical thinking skills. [18:24] You: The process is distributed, the thinking is in the individual. [18:24] You: So, if we see libraries as in the knowledge business... [18:25] You: and knowledge is created through conversation... [18:25] buridan Simon: /hmm, that is not what research indicates in distributed cognition... [18:25] You: then libraries are in teh conversation business. [18:25] Dewey Jung: communication business [18:25] You: So we started looking at web 2.0 and library 2.0 from this frame of reference. [18:25] Dewey Jung: john dewey said "communication is the essence of educatoin" [18:26] LibraryLady LeShelle: Conversation business = learning business [18:26] You: It makes the desire for interactiona nd conversation...the social in social networking...make a lot of sense. [18:26] You: When we are ont he web to learn, we need to be part of the system we are learning from, and we need to particiapte. [18:26] You: We see this in physical libraries...we need more of it, but we see it. [18:27] You: Now think about libraries on the web. [18:27] You: We see much less. [18:27] You: The focus of the online environment (indeed much of our library practices in general) is not on conversations.... [18:27] You: instead the focus is on the artifacts of converation...things. [18:27] James Bringholf: /wave [18:27] You: Books, videos, web pages,...all are artifacts. [18:28] You: question? [18:28] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:28] Hayduke Ebisu: /isnt' that because the Web 2.0 technologies of today do not encourage true conversations? Just mini-outbursts of information? [18:28] You: Slide three up there :Web 2.0 and Library 2.0 talk about some of the components of these two ideas. [18:28] ectogammot Starbrook shouts: where is the amphitheater? [18:29] You: While I think they may be a bit fleeting (what will Web 5.0 look like), they are a good... [18:29] You: indicator of the kinds of conversations that are shaping up. [18:29] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:29] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [18:29] You: Could they be better? sure, but they are a start. [18:29] You: My point is... [18:29] Abaris Brautigan: title blue Nomad Scholar [18:30] You: libraries need to understand and engage in conversations, not collect and arrange things. [18:30] You: Things facilitate conversastions. [18:30] Hayduke Ebisu: /mini-outbursts (blogs, reviews, etc.) are serialized and staggered... unlike the conversation we are having now or one you would have in person [18:30] You: We need them, but they are not ends in and of themselves. [18:30] Dewey Jung: libraries have seen the thi9ngs as the ends [18:30] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:30] You: Yes. [18:30] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [18:30] Dewey Jung: this is a revolutionary concept, libraries as places of conversation [18:30] You: Once again, look at how we organize our collections. [18:31] You: We choose a scheme of how the world is organizaed (a one person conversation) and ask people to adjust to it. [18:31] Pappy Milo: /did u get web 2.0 and the bullet points from Tim O'Reilly's early blog? [18:31] Hayduke Ebisu: /clearly [18:31] You: We can add facets and multi-type metadata, but we are still elaborating one conversation. [18:31] You: Now imagine, if we could capture all the conversations. [18:32] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:32] You: Take a simple example. [18:32] Catherine Chenille: we're the "experts" and many librarians don't want to give up that position for a piece of collective knowledge community [18:32] You: That is an issue. [18:32] You: However, if instead of seeing our expertise as sorting and shelving we saw it as facilitating and synthesizing?! [18:33] Hayduke Ebisu: /from your slide... what would a "mashup" example be that would Library 2.0-ish? [18:33] You: Which is ultimately a more powerful profession? [18:33] You: A mash-up example. [18:33] Jillianna Suisei: How about SOPAC [18:33] You: Imagine taking a section of 18th century authors...their books and papers... [18:34] You: and plotting each location that author was in when he/she was writing on a Google Map. [18:34] Jillianna Suisei: ooops SOPOC, I think. [18:34] You: Imagine now looking for the overlaps... [18:34] You: who was in the same city at the same time... [18:34] You: do their writings reflect this? [18:34] Catherine Chenille: very cool example! [18:34] You: We take Google Maps, our collections, someone's conversation and put them together. [18:34] Marji Beresford: All writing exists in space and time. [18:34] You: Exactly...all writing is a conversation. [18:34] Dewey Jung: all thinking is situated [18:34] Sharkie Carmona: or what was in their libraries...what they were reading [18:34] Sharkie Carmona: or what was in their libraries...what they were reading [18:35] You: And we should work to capture that context, not bury it in a MARC record. [18:35] Hayduke Ebisu: the artifact of that mashup is transitory in a Web 2.0 world... it only lasts as long as Google provides the server [18:35] You: Yes, but that's a great challenge for a library to take on. [18:35] You: Take this presentation... [18:35] Hayduke Ebisu: /libraries should be very concerned about creating a more persistent storehouse of information [18:35] Marji Beresford: All knowledge is interconnected. But how do I show that to teenagers? [18:35] You: It is a conversation... [18:35] You: some might find it useful... [18:35] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:35] You: how are you going to make it available to your patrons? [18:36] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:36] Hayduke Ebisu: /but a transitory one... no permanence to it at all... if google changes their data or service, it would only be a memory [18:36] You: Instead of putting it in the "Z's" [18:36] Dewey Jung: teenagers love interconnectiveness! they can make their own interlinks [18:36] You: How about linking a video of it to the paper. [18:36] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:36] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:36] You: The paper itself links to other web sites and resources... [18:36] You: they in urn link to articles and books... [18:36] Marji Beresford: We can't link much because of the freaking filers. [18:37] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:37] You: now someone accessing this lecture has a guided path to terabytes of information... [18:37] You: in context... [18:37] You: not a simple transcript and good luck. [18:37] You: Make sense? [18:37] Pappy Milo: /nod [18:37] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:37] You: OK, so where is this headed? [18:37] Pappy Milo: /its not very clean though [18:37] You: Well, this was a technology brief, so we took that focus. [18:38] LibraryLady LeShelle: The public/most K-12 pulbic schools are threatened by this amount of freedom for students. [18:38] You: There could be, and will be other treatments, but for now let's stick with tech. [18:38] You: (not every path has to go to every sector. [18:38] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:38] Dewey Jung: fear is the enemy of learning!!! [18:38] You: All contexts will have boundaries that aare placed upon them. [18:39] You: Let's look at library systems with this participatory/conversational lens. [18:39] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:39] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:39] You: That's the arrow slide behind me. [18:39] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [18:39] You: The left most column is the current array of systems we use. [18:39] You: They are silos. [18:39] You: In fact they look an aweful lot like web menus I've seen on a library or two. [18:40] You: "Click here for our catalog"... [18:40] You: ""Click here to ask a question"... [18:40] Dinnie Devonshire: Ha! [18:40] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:40] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:40] You: "Click here for our institutational repositories"... [18:40] Dewey Jung: this is kind of web 1.0, then web 2.0 then web 3.0 (sl), then.... [18:40] You: The point is, we have added these systems one next to each other over time to respond to the needs of our custormers. [18:40] You: We were doing a good thing. [18:41] Pappy Milo: /web 3.0 = sl?? cuz its 3d? [18:41] You: We all already see the need for better integration... [18:41] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:41] You: that's the next column. [18:41] Hayduke Ebisu: /when we actually eliminate the silos (not just punch holes in them via apis), then we'll be "there" [18:41] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:41] You: Federated searching, digital repositories, etc. [18:41] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:41] You: This work forms a sort of trajectory, that we wanted to play out into a road map. [18:42] Dewey Jung: not totally sure what web 3.0 means, but sl is not web 2.0 [18:42] You: How these systems can begin to be integrated and collapse together. [18:42] You: The ultimate end point being a "particiaptory library" system. [18:42] You: The main thing about this system is that it makes no distiction between data and metadata. [18:42] Dewey Jung: participation is the primary activity of social learning [18:42] You: The catalog and the digital repository are the same thing. [18:43] You: In fact...the catalog is misnamed as it is currently constituted. [18:43] You: It is in fact an inventory system... [18:43] You: that was Dewey's great advance...an elaborate inventory system. [18:43] Dewey Jung: MELVILLE NOT JOHN [18:43] You: That is what in retail stores they never let the customer see because it is too arcane. [18:44] You: Yes, Mel. [18:44] You: Take a look at an amazon page. [18:44] You: It is very long if you look at the whole thing. [18:44] You: The majority of it is conversations and comments. [18:44] You: It is a finding aid and directional. [18:44] You: Yes, it is meant for commerce.... [18:45] Maxito Ricardo: The metadata outgrows the data! [18:45] You: but the point is, that it is intended to meet the users need to find something, not an institutions need to locate and control the item. [18:46] You: sorry. [18:46] You: That never happend in a presentation of mine before :-) [18:46] You: Anyway. [18:46] Boolib Wunderle: /smile [18:46] You: Here's the real 900 pound gorilla in the room. [18:46] You: Everyday our catalogs become less useful. [18:47] Susan Lightfoot: why not let patrons make comments like Amazon? add subjects? [18:47] You: Not because they are doing a worse job, but because people are looking to full-text and instant resources. [18:47] You: Exactly...have a conversation on an item... [18:47] You: and, here we go...add items as well. [18:47] Pappy Milo: /amen on the full text and instant resources [18:47] You: Comments, article, full text, what have you. [18:48] Marji Beresford: book reviews? [18:48] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:48] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:48] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:48] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:48] You: And, here is where folks put up the shields...we let them into the systems themselves. [18:48] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:48] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:48] Pappy Milo: /medline/ovid drive me nuts compared to google [18:48] Brian Garfield: addition of items - is that not some of the digital libraries that are springing up? [18:48] You: To do this we need to get much more sophisticated about identity managment. [18:48] You: Yes, but Google doesn't allow people to add. [18:48] Aisling Howard: Well isn't Penntags doing a tiny bit of that? [18:48] You: We could beat them to the punch! [18:49] You: Yes. there are folks doing some of this already. [18:49] Hayduke Ebisu: WikiLibrary? [18:49] You: We tried to put examples in the paper. [18:49] Ayesha Jacobus: But all those things can be added to the systems we have now, presuming we have the resources. [18:49] You: However, most folks are adding this to the edges, we need to add it righ t to the heart of the library. [18:49] Aisling Howard: And wouldn't we ideally want sort of like a digital repository, more like OCLC Web 4.0 w/ comments, and all, since seperated systems seem to be on the way out [18:49] You: Yes! [18:49] Dewey Jung: you aer saying libraries should capture conversations? [18:50] You: YES!!!! [18:50] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:50] Maxito Ricardo: resource allocation, reallocation, and deployment [18:50] Dewey Jung: how do we decide which conversations are worth keeping? [18:50] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:50] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:50] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:50] Pappy Milo: /i like the idea of people adding comments to the library data [18:50] You: Which ones are worht keeping? [18:50] Dewey Jung: librarians have always had a selection function, not just preservation [18:50] You: Great question. [18:50] Hayduke Ebisu: /you let the community decide, dewey [18:50] You: YES! [18:50] You: That's the answer. [18:50] LibraryLady LeShelle: Not in the high school library - sorry... [18:50] Dewey Jung: revolutionary! [18:51] Susan Lightfoot: this is bottom up [18:51] You: That's why we have to make the library and community one. [18:51] Hayduke Ebisu: /everyone is able to make assertions about everything [18:51] Susan Lightfoot: very counter to the way traditional research libraries operate [18:51] Dewey Jung: librarylady, say more [18:51] Susan Lightfoot: but it is brilliant [18:51] Sharkie Carmona: Excuse me, but isn't this what Ann Arbor Public Library is doing with their catalog..conversations in their catalog [18:51] You: Right now libraries have a very simple notion of identity...librarians, and not librarians. [18:51] Susan Lightfoot: yes [18:51] Ilene Pratt: You mean lik e American Idol? YOu are going to expect people to phone in their votes on the conversations? [18:51] Susan Lightfoot: there are some real life examples [18:51] Pappy Milo: /i can see how bad anonymous comments in a HS library would get dirty/messy [18:51] Hayduke Ebisu: sharkie... think WAY beyond the catalog [18:51] Dewey Jung: ilene lol [18:51] Hayduke Ebisu: every known fact about your community should be a part of your library [18:51] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [18:51] Dewey Jung: all public comments get message/dirty!!!! [18:51] You: We need to understand that there are degrees of inclusion in the system. [18:51] LibraryLady LeShelle: I have conducted blogs and wikis with young adults. Invariably, there is the person who "ruins" it for all. [18:51] Dewey Jung: do we trust the public? [18:51] Hayduke Ebisu: including books, publications, services offered, fire hydrant locations, community events, etc [18:52] You: YOu earn more ability to add and modify as you show your knowledge with the community, [18:52] Brian Garfield: trust is a big part of 2.0 [18:52] Susan Lightfoot: do you trust the library to always get it right? [18:52] You: Controubtions based on merit, not job title. [18:52] Patrice Primeau: trust the public? What does flickr, blogger, etc do? [18:52] Susan Lightfoot: I once had a book of poetry cataloged in the biology section because it was about goats ... go figure [18:52] Sharkie Carmona: There are other information providers in the community..fire hydrants...thats GIS and in the planning dept. [18:52] You: They trust, but verify... [18:52] Dewey Jung: flickr and blogger aren't saving stuff for posterity [18:52] Aisling Howard: It's sort of how trusted user systems work at various big blog sites, like Dkos [18:52] Ilene Pratt: I trust librarians to represent users and respect users - more than most users respect each other. [18:52] You: They develop community enforcement and polcy mechanisms. [18:53] You: Yes. [18:53] Hayduke Ebisu: who better than librarians to help organize and publicize that data? [18:53] LibraryLady LeShelle: Yeah, Ilene! [18:53] Patrice Primeau: no, but flickr and blogger have ways of dealing with things others find offensive [18:53] You: THis is different than an artifact approach. [18:53] Patrice Primeau: who decides? [18:53] Dewey Jung: ilene, this of course is the assumed role of librarians as knowledge protectors [18:53] You: Wait for the data to be created, vet it, tag it, shelve it. [18:53] Dewey Jung: dare we give that uyp? [18:53] Hayduke Ebisu: everyone decides [18:53] Hayduke Ebisu: lol [18:53] You: It's too late then. The conversation is either over aor well into the context making. [18:53] Susan Lightfoot: this is a bottom up approach [18:53] Pappy Milo: /i think i sense a few librarians unable to give up some power [18:53] You: That's where insitutions repositories need to be. [18:53] Susan Lightfoot: would be interesting to see how that compares to a traditional system [18:54] You: Don't wait for the paper to be written, capture the drafts, and the data. [18:54] Hayduke Ebisu: /nods [18:54] Aisling Howard: While I am very much on board with this new approach, and I think I know an idea of the answer, but what would be the role of librarians in this world? [18:54] You: Facilitation. [18:54] Susan Lightfoot: navigation [18:54] Patrice Primeau: it is the public who pay for the librarians [18:54] You: Buidling community and keeping conversations going... [18:54] Ilene Pratt: It's not power - It's the tragedy of the commons - like someone just said, there's always spoilers out there. [18:54] Maxito Ricardo: Sense making would be through use and thus "unconscious" When a group a people form a dirt path on a lawn, they don't intend to do that. [18:54] You: is hard and specialized work. [18:54] Patrice Primeau: the public make their decisions [18:54] Susan Lightfoot: evaluation [18:54] LibraryLady LeShelle: Guide [18:54] You: We need to know how to intrude and hold back to keep it going. [18:55] Hayduke Ebisu: in the digital age, the only tragedy of the commons is not participating [18:55] You: We need to understnad the mechanisms of how to organize data not just to one conversation (like DDC) but millions. [18:55] Hayduke Ebisu: with filtering, social networks of trust, etc. there is no polluting of the commons [18:55] You: We need to be an information prtner. [18:55] Dewey Jung: there is a traditioanl conception of vulgar vs. pure knowledge; this threatens that distinction [18:55] Pappy Milo: /i think most people do not participate with their own comments/reccomendations on amazon [18:55] You: Filters are an interesting term. [18:56] You: I like filters...they keep toxins out of my water :-) [18:56] Hayduke Ebisu: /I use it very purposefully [18:56] Sharkie Carmona: Amazon, you;re right I don't participate [18:56] You: When we encounter all of these conversations we will need systems/people to help make sense of them... [18:56] Catherine Chenille: At my university library there seems to be a divide among the librarians that are wanting to have conversations and the ones that, according to one of them today, want to return to the business of "academics" [18:56] Ilene Pratt: "Filters" can allow us to make choices about the kinds of info we want at a certain time. [18:56] You: prioritize them, and filter out the ones we don't want. [18:56] LibraryLady LeShelle: Filters also don't work. [18:56] You: Academia is a very specialized and pure form of conversation. [18:56] Dewey Jung: no, think of the filter as being a temporary PERSONAL CHOICE device [18:56] Maxito Ricardo: That's the great thing about an information ecology: lots of people can "take" from it, even if only a few "contribute" to it, without diminishing the valule of that ecological environment [18:57] Pappy Milo: /a couple simple "thumbs downs" filter out the garbage rather quickly [18:57] You: That's what Plato and Aristoltle were doing. [18:57] Dewey Jung: librarians can help us create USEFUL filters to find what we need [18:57] Catherine Chenille: oh - expound on that pelase dave! [18:57] Hayduke Ebisu: think of the next generation of filters as "show me information from those I trust..." [18:57] Ilene Pratt: Right Dewey! That's what I'm thinking. [18:57] Hayduke Ebisu: each person's search might yield a different result... customized for them [18:57] You: If knwoledge is created through conversation... [18:57] You: peer review... [18:57] Dewey Jung: i like this idea [18:57] Dewey Jung: DEMOCRATIZE THE FILTERS [18:57] You: then acadmics are also in the conversation business. [18:57] You: We have made an art out of a highly specialized form of converation. [18:58] You: We put rules on it in terms of publications and types of evidence. [18:58] Susan Lightfoot: and siloing [18:58] Hayduke Ebisu: and to be honest, this is where the Web 2.0 analogy breaks down [18:58] Patrice Primeau: i like the idea of being peer reviewed in other ways than journal publication etc [18:58] You: If libraries are also in teh knowledge business that is where they should be. [18:58] Dewey Jung: what do you mean by siloing, susan? [18:58] Hayduke Ebisu: There is almost no effective filtering in Web 2.0 [18:58] You: Instead, many academic libraries are in the business of external information... [18:58] You: Meaning, the conversation stops becuase some academic doesn't ahve a piece of information... [18:58] Hayduke Ebisu: there can't be because the mashups and the data sharing are not permanent... they happen in a mashup and then are gone [18:58] Catherine Chenille: yes and "experts" [18:58] You: they expact the library to get it and house it... [18:58] Susan Lightfoot: organizational silos impact our projects, the way the library has developed [18:58] Susan Lightfoot: what tools we use [18:59] You: and then the real converation continues... [18:59] Susan Lightfoot: and can agree on [18:59] You: that menas the library is a place not about conversations, but about stuff outside the domain of the real conversations.. [18:59] You: we're and appendage that looses value as external infromation becomes easier to get. [18:59] LibraryLady LeShelle: I see a role for libraries/librarians as networkers who connect people with similar philosophies, attitudes, interests - personal RSS feeders... [18:59] You: That might ahve been a bit harse. [18:59] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [18:59] Brian Garfield: mashup data can be preserved as libraries get more involved [18:59] Dewey Jung: vestigal appendage? [18:59] You: YES! [19:00] You: I'm preaching to the converted here. [19:00] Hayduke Ebisu: virtual... I don't think it is too harsh... librarians are at a precipice... they could go the way of dinosaurs [19:00] Susan Lightfoot: libraries need to market themselves better in order to assure their relevancy [19:00] Dewey Jung: "market themselves" [19:00] Hayduke Ebisu: replaced by information architects and other filter-building folks [19:00] You: Yes, but what are they marketing? [19:00] Pappy Milo: /why are librarians so afraid of losing value?? [19:00] Dewey Jung: the language of business creeps in [19:00] Susan Lightfoot: marketing what resources we have [19:00] Dewey Jung: it's not all about capital [19:01] Brian Garfield: too many information professionals still believe they are competing against Web 2.0 rather than being part of it [19:01] Dewey Jung: what about human fulfillment? [19:01] Maxito Ricardo: The best way to assure one's relevancy is to be relevant [19:01] Susan Lightfoot: how many people distinguish between databases, library resources and google? [19:01] You: They need to market how they add value, not their great collection of stuff. [19:01] Patrice Primeau: I don't understand why we can't keep a traditional catalog format and add value to that...it is not either/or [19:01] Susan Lightfoot: not many [19:01] Patrice Primeau: it can be both [19:01] You: Let's take the catalog for a minute. [19:01] You: OK. [19:01] You: Think about what it does... [19:01] Dewey Jung: i think we need a role for people who see beyond the immediate "consumer desire" [19:01] Susan Lightfoot: sure, that's what librarians do when they connect with patrons, users, customers, or whatever you call them [19:02] You: you ask it a question, and it dumps everything it knowls ont hat topic back...a lecture at best. [19:02] You: Also, what assumptions does it make. [19:02] Dewey Jung: maybe they are called "educators" :-) [19:02] You: Imagine you search for something and get no results... [19:02] LibraryLady LeShelle: Yeah, Dewey Jung! [19:02] You: do you assume the user is stupid? [19:02] You: "did you spell it right" [19:02] You: "did you do this? [19:02] You: Ask a librarin for help." [19:02] LibraryLady LeShelle: The user needs a guide! [19:02] Susan Lightfoot: I assume the system is flawed actually ie, IEEE Explore [19:02] Dewey Jung: we must maintain our values [19:02] You: Or do we assume the library is stupid... [19:03] You: "Click here for interlibrary loan...." [19:03] Dewey Jung: OUR VALUES ARE VALUABLE [19:03] Dewey Jung: even if the public disagrees! [19:03] You: Why not start a conversation. [19:03] You: Let the user, at that point, start a reference interaction. [19:03] Brian Garfield: resources designed for users should not need a guide [19:03] You: The outcome of that transaction stays int eh catalog...for the next peron. [19:03] You: Or the user, if they have enogh access, adds an article. [19:03] Maxito Ricardo: Does the conversation model scale? [19:03] Dewey Jung: someone has to design the resources, brian [19:03] Hayduke Ebisu: bingo... that's an important point [19:04] You: Or the next user with the same query might leave a pointer ot a better query. [19:04] You: Interaction...tru interaction. [19:04] LibraryLady LeShelle: Just as education requires a smaller learner to teacher ratio so will this vision of library service [19:04] Brian Garfield: I though you meant guide like instruction manual [19:04] Hayduke Ebisu: information cairns left by other users who have been to that query before you [19:04] You: I think it is evolution, but it needs to be quick. [19:04] Maxito Ricardo: Is it realistic to assume that umpteen teenagers will be able to converse with a Nobel scientist? [19:04] Dewey Jung: cairns, great metaphor hayduke! [19:04] You: It took us hundreds of years to get the book right, we're just starting with library systems :-) [19:04] Patrice Primeau: it's like those who say a well-designed website doesn't need a search function [19:05] You: Let the nobel folks filter out the undergraduates (at their peril). [19:05] Patrice Primeau: dude [19:05] Ilene Pratt: Anyone know business students who hide books from fellow students so the others won't be able to do their work? Why culdn't those same types screw up the conversations? [19:05] Hayduke Ebisu: ilene: filtering [19:05] Pappy Milo: /people are generally nice & helpful [19:05] You: No one forces them to talk. Lurking is always an acceptable behaviour :-) [19:05] You: Thanks all, we need to wrap up. [19:05] Patrice Primeau: like wikipedia..could you keep track? [19:06] Dewey Jung: this is an awesome format for conversation btw [19:06] Visitor Counter 1.7: Welcome to the Info Island Open Air Auditorium [19:06] Hayduke Ebisu: patrice: except unlike wikipedia, you don't want people over-writing each others' assertions